[10:18]  Agent Heliosense:  hi Qion
[10:18]  Qion Ning: hi..
[10:19]  Agent Heliosense:  so just making myself available for Q and A etc
[10:19]  Asterion Coen: hello :)
[10:19]  Agent Heliosense:  hi Asterion
[10:19]  Agent Heliosense:  good to see you both
[10:19]  Asterion Coen: thx :)
[10:19]  Qion Ning: have been busy with burning life..
[10:19]  Qion Ning: great fun
[10:19]  Asterion Coen: i got some router probs
[10:19]  Asterion Coen: couldnt connect for a while
[10:19]  Agent Heliosense:  hows your burning life exhibit going Qion
[10:20]  Qion Ning: its great..
[10:21]  Agent Heliosense:  I've been laying out plans for new sim and some sidewalks
[10:21]  Qion Ning: making some big nixie tubes.. like 1 meters high
[10:21]  Qion Ning: 16 meters
[10:21]  Agent Heliosense:  what's a nixie tube?
[10:21]  Qion Ning: it a numerical indicator tube..
[10:21]  Qion Ning: its like big digits from the tube age
[10:22]  Qion Ning: making a \big clock from it
[10:22]  Agent Heliosense:  ok sounds interesting
[10:22]  Agent Heliosense:  when does it open
[10:22]  Qion Ning: 27 september
[10:22]  Agent Heliosense:  wow another week.
[10:22]  Qion Ning: so i have only a week to get the scripts ready for the clock
[10:23]  Qion Ning: i coudnt get a parcel first..
[10:23]  Qion Ning: but i was lucky.. got a lottery parcel
[10:23]  Agent Heliosense:  22 sims
[10:24]  Agent Heliosense:  i thought it coincided with burning man, which is apparently already over
[10:25]  Qion Ning: i dont know..
[10:25]  Qion Ning: i jsut heard it a few weeks ago
[10:26]  Qion Ning: didnt know much about the real life event
[10:27]  Agent Heliosense:  me neither althought its well known here
[10:27]  Qion Ning: any tech news lately
[10:27]  Agent Heliosense:  what is your tube exhibit about?
[10:27]  Agent Heliosense:  well we have the new sim under development now
[10:27]  Qion Ning: classes new site
[10:28]  Agent Heliosense:  also we will be getting a sim in teen grid
[10:28]  Agent Heliosense:  so, past month has not had any competition going on
[10:28]  Qion Ning: how can you visit teen grid
[10:28]  Qion Ning: you have to be very young again... or a mentor?
[10:29]  Agent Heliosense:  however, next ones will start next month, so i'm encouraging everyone to sign up at http://thetechvirtual.org/createMember
[10:29]  Agent Heliosense:  http://thetechvirtual.org/createMember
[10:29]  Agent Heliosense:  sorry
[10:30]  Agent Heliosense:  to gear up. About the teen grid you can port an avatar over there
[10:30]  Agent Heliosense:  after bing approved and screened so
[10:30]  Agent Heliosense:  that's how it works.
[10:31]  Agent Heliosense:  I'll have another avatar sent over there.
[10:31]  Agent Heliosense:  once they are sent over they can never come back! \
[10:31]  Agent Heliosense:  likewise, once someone turns 18 their teen grid (TG) avatar is ported over here
[10:31]  Qion Ning: how do they screen you
[10:32]  Agent Heliosense:  TG is not anywhere near the size of main grid.
[10:32]  Agent Heliosense:  Linden Lab has a form and you pay for the backgrouind screen.
[10:33]  Agent Heliosense:  The teen grid also produced a lot of good exhibit ideas.
[10:33]  Qion Ning: ok.. i think its interesting for the tech to be there too.. just not for me
[10:34]  Qion Ning: its busy enough here for me to create a presence
[10:34]  Asterion Coen: back
[10:35]  Agent Heliosense:  from what I understand from our teen intern it is very small, like SL in the early days, and everyone knows what's going on. The Tech island will be big news he says.
[10:35]  Agent Heliosense:  I'm excited that we are adding capacity as I am claustraphobic!
[10:35]  Asterion Coen: :)
[10:35]  Elbereth Witte checks the prims remaining count :-)
[10:36]  Agent Heliosense:  being indoors is stressful for me as i like to use far away camera angles
[10:36]  Asterion Coen: hi elbereth ;)
[10:36]  Qion Ning: 269!
[10:36]  Agent Heliosense:  hi elbereth
[10:36]  Elbereth Witte: pretty high I think
[10:36]  Elbereth Witte: at least relatively
[10:36]  Agent Heliosense:  so we will have lots more space to work, or where you can visualize your design
[10:37]  Qion Ning: i always get lost in the maze of the tech..
[10:37]  Agent Heliosense:  perhaps inside a box or room in order to see it properly
[10:37]  Qion Ning: i usually use only the back entrance and the dome
[10:37]  Elbereth Witte: getting lost is an itteresting way to find exhibits :_)
[10:37]  Asterion Coen: :)
[10:37]  Elbereth Witte: I usually just fly thorugh walls/ceilings ;-)
[10:37]  Agent Heliosense:  there will be space to do this! The plot of land will be slightly larger than the frame so more space to work
[10:38]  Agent Heliosense:  change the floor etc. etc.
[10:38]  Asterion Coen: maybe the use of some rezzbox can help too :)
[10:38]  Qion Ning: you got an error over your head elbereth
[10:38]  Elbereth Witte: just a question
[10:38]  Qion Ning: forget to clear the carry
[10:38]  Elbereth Witte: tell linden labs that
[10:38]  Agent Heliosense:  remember I stared a buildings and grounds project and Elbereth here has been helping with some ongoing improvements last few days.
[10:38]  Elbereth Witte: mmmmm, smog water
[10:39]  Agent Heliosense:  removing extra prims etc etc.
[10:39]  Elbereth Witte: if I can get the atrium tube replaced, can prolly get about 50% more prims available
[10:39]  Qion Ning: whats the backpack.. a bomb?
[10:39]  Elbereth Witte: or 25%, not sure
[10:39]  Elbereth Witte: its an experiment to see how many people think its a bomb :-)
[10:40]  Asterion Coen: lol
[10:40]  Elbereth Witte: and my attempt at validating the time I spent making that led bit, and then leaving it unused in my inventory for halyf a year
[10:40]  Qion Ning: and whats the score so far
[10:40]  Elbereth Witte: a solid third of people seem to leap out and ask if its a bomb
[10:40]  Asterion Coen: hi jerry :)
[10:41]  j3rry Paine: hiya!
[10:41]  Agent Heliosense:  hi jerry
[10:41]  Qion Ning: hi j3
[10:41]  j3rry Paine: q ;)
[10:41]  Agent Heliosense:  i'd have to look at that tube, i havent examined it
[10:42]  Asterion Coen: elbeth, u could wear some damocles sword too, you will have lot of questions :)
[10:42]  Elbereth Witte: its primmy, I have a replacement if I can cobble together the textures
[10:42]  Agent Heliosense:  jerry and Elbereth have same tee
[10:42]  j3rry Paine: imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
[10:43]  Elbereth Witte: yeah, I may go back to my old shirt, and adjust the color like I learned a year into using this shirt
[10:43]  Elbereth Witte: I've had mini-mes etc done
[10:43]  Elbereth Witte: the cube on the hand used to be a trademark of mine almost
[10:43]  Agent Heliosense:  so the tech update here is, new sim, more space, teen grid planned, and get ready for thinking about exhibits along the topic
[10:43]  Agent Heliosense:  of ARt-film-music-games
[10:43]  Agent Heliosense:  and we also have a Silicon Valley related machinima competition in planning
[10:44]  Asterion Coen: what about a sphere in your facen elbeth ?:)
[10:44]  Asterion Coen: face*
[10:44]  Elbereth Witte: my brainmodule?
[10:44]  Agent Heliosense:  also, later this year will likely see a competition based around Doug Engelbart's concepts related to "Collective IQ"
[10:44]  Elbereth Witte: or that bit in my throat that seems to bleed whenever scripting is disabled?
[10:44]  Asterion Coen: with a rerfish texture :)
[10:44]  Asterion Coen: redfish
[10:45]  Agent Heliosense:  such as is described here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_intelligence
[10:46]  Elbereth Witte: the word should prolly be attached to your spine, head waggles too much
[10:46]  Asterion Coen: great agent
[10:47]  Asterion Coen: i imagine humans, with some electrodes linked to some huge databases :)
[10:47]  Agent Heliosense:  hehe it may provoke imaginative exhibit ideas!
[10:47]  Asterion Coen: the question is to know if our brains r abble to work in clusters hehe
[10:48]  j3rry Paine: both metcalf and moore might be useful adjuncts to collective intelligence
[10:48]  Agent Heliosense:  The 40th anniversary of Doug Engelbart's "Mother of all Demos" is comin gup
[10:48]  Agent Heliosense:  the videos of that historic demo are at http://sloan.stanford.edu/MouseSite/1968Demo.html
[10:49]  Elbereth Witte: I suspect pluging brains together would lead to a neurotic mes :-)
[10:49]  Agent Heliosense:  The upcoming competition here will be more bassed on future models, not a retrospective
[10:49]  Asterion Coen: it will make the database machine going skysophrene :)
[10:49]  Agent Heliosense:  Right Elbereth we're trying to steer away from those problems
[10:50]  Agent Heliosense:  so, admittedly it is an amorphous topic, however there are many approaches
[10:50]  Agent Heliosense:  that i think could be modeled and made interactive.
[10:51]  Asterion Coen: i wish good luck to the modeler team :)
[10:51]  Agent Heliosense:  For example, Doug and his team basically worked out the use of the CRT, keyboard + mouse + file folders + copy and paste and lots more
[10:52]  Agent Heliosense:  all the basic tools we use today, so the project looks to the future of this kind of thinking and what might be possible.
[10:53]  Asterion Coen: it was an experience about to make work ms word
[10:53]  Agent Heliosense:  if you want to read up on it just start with those links on wikipedia and watch the 1968 demo. It is incredible.
[10:53]  Asterion Coen: with the brain
[10:54]  Agent Heliosense:  I recently watched "2001" again which was released the same year!
[10:54]  Asterion Coen: i should watch it
[10:54]  Agent Heliosense:  The advances they expected or that seemed possible in 40 years were staggering.
[10:55]  Elbereth Witte: well, they were closish on teh spaceflight bit
[10:55]  j3rry Paine: only to those that didn't read science fiction
[10:55]  Elbereth Witte: a little more funding
[10:55]  Agent Heliosense:  40 years later, everyone uses the computer mouse without thinking, it's like a stapler in that it is ubiquitous.
[10:55]  j3rry Paine: or comic books lol
[10:56]  Elbereth Witte: tell that to grandmothers everywhere
[10:56]  Asterion Coen: they need to know how our brain is working first :)
[10:57]  Asterion Coen: actualy, they know about the several parts, the eletric activities, and the interactions (with r different from reach persons) of the the several part
[10:57]  Asterion Coen: they dont know how that is working
[10:57]  Asterion Coen: some parts of our brain r unknow
[10:57]  Asterion Coen: and doesnt seem to be "activated"
[10:57]  Qion Ning: ilooked at the site.. great stuff there
[10:57]  j3rry Paine: that is not kurzweil's position
[10:58]  Elbereth Witte: I don't buy the "we're wasting 90% of our brain" theory
[10:58]  Asterion Coen: the day we will know how we r working, our puters will be smart :)
[10:59]  Agent Heliosense:  I'm sure there could be AI ideas put into this type of exhibition and competition.
[10:59]  Agent Heliosense:  there are a few companies and models out there especially looking at virtual worlds.
[10:59]  Asterion Coen: analytic models
[11:00]  Asterion Coen: or very specific AI learning languages
[11:00]  Asterion Coen: like how a machine learn to walk with 8 feet
[11:00]  Qion Ning: menlo park that was england.. secret service?
[11:00]  j3rry Paine: nobody pays enough attention to richard wallace
[11:00]  Asterion Coen: and some stuffs like that
[11:00]  Elbereth Witte: walking mechanics in SL are darned near impollible to make work with SL physics
[11:00]  Asterion Coen: the other stuffs r about analytic, and bases and some huge "human" databases :)
[11:01]  Asterion Coen: those computers r not smart
[11:01]  Elbereth Witte: "expert systems"?
[11:01]  Asterion Coen: analytic
[11:01]  Asterion Coen: they r not creative
[11:02]  j3rry Paine: that's one of the turing arguments
[11:02]  Asterion Coen: they can take a decision after analized like thausend of conditional tests
[11:02]  j3rry Paine: they don't appreciate sunsets either
[11:02]  Agent Heliosense:  Menlo Park CA i think
[11:02]  Asterion Coen: and in admeting the database is correct
[11:02]  Elbereth Witte: I think the turing test is mainly to foster the creation of a computer that is a con artist :-)
[11:03]  j3rry Paine: as are we all
[11:03]  Agent Heliosense:  that has indeed been the goal hasnt' it.
[11:03]  Asterion Coen: i think u can to program (call that AI if u want) to simulate some creative work
[11:03]  Agent Heliosense:  Considering that "creative work" is a wide definition.
[11:04]  Elbereth Witte: and subjective
[11:04]  Agent Heliosense:  yes. But would "the work" have "meaning"
[11:04]  Asterion Coen: but it will still be some pre programed algorithm where any progrmammer could give the same result by analysing the code
[11:05]  Elbereth Witte: tahts why random inputs are used often
[11:05]  Elbereth Witte: garbage in, pretty garbage out
[11:05]  Agent Heliosense:  If you are just looking for a painting in and of itself then of course computers can do it, animate things etc.
[11:05]  Asterion Coen: by definition, it cant have any premonition about creation
[11:05]  Asterion Coen: a creative never know in advance what will be the real result
[11:05]  Asterion Coen: only once it's over
[11:05]  Asterion Coen: (and he still can perform it)
[11:05]  Elbereth Witte: well, considering computers just plain don't jknow at all, you're defeating your argument ;-)
[11:06]  Asterion Coen: computer r not creative :)
[11:06]  Asterion Coen: the can to detect some illogical stuffs
[11:06]  Agent Heliosense:  Ive heard it defined as beign able to introduce unpredictable inputs
[11:06]  Asterion Coen: and think stupid you put some red colors in some parts
[11:07]  Asterion Coen: the day computer will be smart, it wont be bcause of us :)
[11:07]  Agent Heliosense:  For example, Doug Engelbart's work is called "augmentation"
[11:07]  Asterion Coen: they will have to invente themself the correct model
[11:08]  Agent Heliosense:  maybe there's tools to augment without trying to get a computer to be a human.
[11:08]  Asterion Coen: everything coming with some equations, even complex, r predictive
[11:08]  Elbereth Witte: we will be the catalyst of machine intelligenc if it happens in our time, that is not really avoidable
[11:08]  Asterion Coen: im not sure our brain can fit with some equation models :)
[11:09]  Agent Heliosense:  The term "Collective IQ" in the sense of this upcoming exhibition can be working methods for groups as well as technological ideas.
[11:10]  Asterion Coen: but im sure computer, or other machines will be smart a day
[11:10]  j3rry Paine: the exponential application of moore's law guarantees that adequate "models" will be available
[11:10]  Asterion Coen: not sure they will be 100% electronic and metal/plastic
[11:11]  Elbereth Witte: moores law may have been a self achieving phenomenon up to this point
[11:11]  Elbereth Witte: theres a better term for that....
[11:11]  Asterion Coen: j3rry, even actualy, the most accurate models r modified every time with real observations
[11:12]  Agent Heliosense:  I'm always thinking, if you can't train a person to think, create, innovate how could you teach a computer entity to do so?
[11:12]  Asterion Coen: models gives lot of clues, and can explain lot of stuffs. but after observation they alway add some other (no logical stuffs) to they excatly fit
[11:12]  j3rry Paine: hey, you were the one that said you werent sure if our brain can fit with some models
[11:12]  Agent Heliosense:  And if you can teach a human to do so, there are lots of them willing to sign on!
[11:12]  j3rry Paine: sometimes i sit and think, sometimes i just sit
[11:12]  Asterion Coen: (and they r not sure that exatly fit)
[11:13]  j3rry Paine: if you make people think they're thinking they lvoe you, but if you *really* make them think they *hate* you
[11:13]  j3rry Paine: love
[11:13]  Asterion Coen: oh, easy
[11:13]  j3rry Paine: as turing pointed out , "thinking" is not the right word
[11:13]  Agent Heliosense:  those messy emotions...
[11:13]  Asterion Coen: some jails, medicine and endoctrinement use to give that result :)
[11:14]  j3rry Paine: lol use to
[11:14]  Agent Heliosense:  Another good point...what if augmentin gcollective IQ is found to be best achieved by chemicals or genetic selection?
[11:14]  j3rry Paine: in french the word for 'still', 'yet' and 'again' is the same
[11:14]  Agent Heliosense:  if the best method is found, we certainly cannot argue against it, as scientists.
[11:15]  Asterion Coen: a day a computer will be abble to invente some nice stuffs (stuffs we couldnt invent ourself) then we will be abble to say they r smart :)
[11:15]  j3rry Paine: all of the above. but digital developments are so much more powerful and their models are likely to prevail
[11:16]  Elbereth Witte: I like the observation taht the best systems are the ones that happen to be based off of what already worked
[11:16]  Elbereth Witte: policies, etc
[11:16]  Asterion Coen: yeah
[11:17]  Elbereth Witte: humans seem to naturally brute force its way through most of the problem space
[11:17]  Elbereth Witte: or most every evolving element
[11:17]  Asterion Coen: human, considere computers as tools
[11:17]  Asterion Coen: stuffs they could do by themself
[11:18]  Asterion Coen: but in much loong time
[11:18]  Asterion Coen: like calculations
[11:18]  Elbereth Witte: yeah, it'd take a country a century of hard work to calc out a roytraced image :-)
[11:18]  Elbereth Witte: unless they cheat or my guestimate is a bit far off the mark :-)
[11:18]  Asterion Coen: :)
[11:19]  Asterion Coen: "smartest" puters actualy wolrking like as u want to hack a system
[11:19]  Asterion Coen: the way to find the same result with other methods
[11:20]  Asterion Coen: so, they do comparaisons, they try several other kind of equation, until that match
[11:21]  Agent Heliosense:  This has inspired a great discussion, wer're nearing 11:30 so I'll just wrap up the meeting itself.
[11:21]  Agent Heliosense:  Chat of meeting is posted is that ok by everyone.
[11:21]  Asterion Coen: ok
[11:21]  Elbereth Witte: sounds okay
[11:22]  Agent Heliosense:  So, i think we'll be in for a lot more of this as we go into the whole copetition and exhibit building.
[11:22]  Elbereth Witte: analog intelligence in a digital world :-)
[11:22]  Asterion Coen: :)
[11:22]  Agent Heliosense:  In the next couple weeks do some background reading, and if you want to sandbox, we've got a whole sim now.
[11:22]  Qion Ning: interesting meeting.. just caught in im a bit
[11:23]  Agent Heliosense:  definitely - I'm glad you all have interest in these topics it's very relevant
[11:24]  Asterion Coen: that's why that's the tech designer team :)
[11:24]  Qion Ning: just dont understand how you can make a computer in sl
[11:24]  Elbereth Witte: it runs close to exestentialism that has devoured lives :-)
[11:24]  Qion Ning: i mean more then just a box
[11:24]  Asterion Coen: qioun just by linking a prim to some other external puters (witch r working fine) :)
[11:25]  Elbereth Witte: I've had "make a brain interpreter" as a todo of mine for half a year now at least
[11:25]  Agent Heliosense:  heeh just kidding
[11:25]  Elbereth Witte: which is very doable with the abilities of mono
[11:26]  Asterion Coen: not sure you will see some nice smart scrip in SL soon :)
[11:26]  Qion Ning: i;ve read about forth and lisp interpreters in lsl
[11:26]  Elbereth Witte: the ceiling was really low before, my programming style is going to have to un-hunch itsself
[11:26]  Agent Heliosense:  I think you can run some mini-programs Qion, as for a "computer" I think you'd rely on the machine running the SL
[11:26]  Qion Ning: tried mono in the release canditate..
[11:26]  Qion Ning: it 99% worked the same
[11:26]  Agent Heliosense:  or the external server computer it connects to throught the net
[11:26]  Asterion Coen: i can easely imagine a bilion code line in some SL script :)
[11:27]  Asterion Coen: (and the puter in LL to make it work)
[11:27]  Qion Ning: i mean converting the old scripts..
[11:27]  Elbereth Witte: I can't, SL script is limited by the per script vidrtual machine stack space
[11:27]  Qion Ning: but the speed difference of 200 times is so great
[11:27]  Elbereth Witte: its more a speed differcence of about 5x
[11:27]  Elbereth Witte: or 3x
[11:27]  Elbereth Witte: thats my initial impression
[11:28]  Qion Ning: ive read about certain calculations?
[11:28]  Qion Ning: like mathematical stuff
[11:28]  Elbereth Witte: I'm sure certain cals go really fast
[11:28]  Asterion Coen: but well, in SL if u wanna build that kind of puter, im here to build it's design :) (i let you the coding) :)
[11:28]  Qion Ning: to many other projects on the todo list at the moment..
[11:29]  Qion Ning: plot 067 burning nixies is higher on the list..lol
[11:29]  Asterion Coen: (im ot only building smart computer design)
[11:29]  Asterion Coen: not*
[11:30]  Agent Heliosense:  Welcome to Vaporware Inc.